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Reading The Wheel of Time: Mistrust Fractures the Fellowship in Robert Jordan’s The Eye of the World (Part 5)

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Reading The Wheel of Time: Mistrust Fractures the Fellowship in Robert Jordan’s The Eye of the World (Part 5)

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Reading The Wheel of Time: Mistrust Fractures the Fellowship in Robert Jordan’s The Eye of the World (Part 5)

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Published on March 20, 2018

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Robert Jordan has talked about how he intended for The Eye of the World to include some reference and homage to Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings, and since these resemblances have often been remarked upon (sometimes positively, sometimes less so) by readers, it seems fitting at this moment to circle back around to the themes I addressed in the first week of this read. Then, we talked about questing stories and the formation of a fellowship. Now, it is time to talk about what happens when that fellowship is inevitably broken.

Welcome once again to week five of Reading The Wheel of Time. I’ve always really loved the Mines of Moria section of The Fellowship of the Ring, and I think that Chapters 19 and 20 of The Eye of the World just might be my favorite to date. Something about the world-building for Shadar Logoth really clicked for me, and it feels like the story is starting to properly pick up now. Although I enjoyed the prologue and the rat dream (“enjoyed” is maybe the wrong word to use about rat torture, but you know what I mean) there are still too many pieces of information missing for me to really understand the full weight of these events. With Shadar Logoth, however, I feel like the atmosphere, the creepiness of Mordeth, and the danger of the Mashadar are built up perfectly. Like the wights of the Barrowdowns in The Fellowship of the Ring foreshadowing the Ringwraiths, I imagine that the darkness we encounter in Shadar Logoth will probably set up more world-building to come. And in the meantime, well, I definitely got chills.

But I’m getting ahead of myself.

Moiraine and Lan lead the others down the Caemlyn Road, hoping that they will be able to stay ahead of the enemy they now know is pursuing them. But when Lan drops behind to investigate the sounds of horns behind them, he discovers hundreds of Trollocs, led by several Myrddraal, running hot on their trail, and the winding of horns further up the road ahead of them lets them know that their enemies are closing in on both sides. Lan makes a veiled suggestion to Moiraine about a place where even Trollocs won’t go, but she rejects his idea and they leave the road instead, hoping to cut through the hilly, forested area and escape capture. But it isn’t long before they happen upon a mass of Trollocs, a Myrddraal at its head, and are forced to fight. Luckily, when Lan beheads the Myrddraal the Trollocs collapse, howling and flailing and tearing at themselves. The groups escapes, but soon they are confronted by even more Trollocs, and three Myrddraal. This time it takes Moiraine’s power, amplified by her angreal and staff, to stop them, as she makes the ground roll and toss like waves, and then puts a huge column of flame between the party and the Myrddraal. They once again escape, but Moiraine is weak with exhaustion, and this time she bends to Lan’s desires, and lays a false trail for the Trollocs to follow as the party sets out for the mysterious place where they will, apparently, be safe. Eventually they reach the ruins of a city, once called Aridhol, but now known as Shadar Logoth.

The Two Rivers folks are in awe of the size of Aridhol, and Rand even feels a little foolish for being impressed by the much smaller Baerlon. Despite her continued dislike of Moiraine, Nynaeve is eager to help her with her exhaustion, and Mat and Perrin and Rand take care of their horses and those of Moiraine and Lan while the others set up camp in one of the buildings. Once the boys’ work is done, however, Mat goads the others into going out to explore the city while there is daylight left. They wander the ruins for a while, in awe of the size of everything, but they only find crumbling architecture and dust. Still, Mat insists that there must be treasure somewhere in such a place, and only a moment later they encounter a man in the shadows who claims to be a treasure hunter. He gives his name as Mordeth, and tells the boys that he has found more treasure in the city than he can take out with him. If they help him take his share to his horses, he promises they may have whatever they like of the rest. Before anyone can be thoughtful about the offer, Mat charges eagerly into a building after Mordeth, forcing the others to follow into a hallway and down a pitch back staircase until they come to a room lit by torches and filled with gold and treasure. All three of the boys are mesmerized by jewelry and goblets and richly-decorated weapons, but then Rand notices in the torchlight that Mordeth doesn’t have a shadow. He blurts out the observation and suddenly Mordeth changes, his body swelling large enough to block the door to the room, reaching out apparently to grab them. But instead of attacking, he suddenly shrieks and pulls away, changing into a wisp of smoke and disappearing through a crack in the wall while screaming that they are all dead.

The boys race back to the camp, feeling unseen eyes on them as they travel through the streets, and find Moiraine waiting angrily for them. Lan is gone, out looking for them, and after they explain what happened Moiraine becomes alarmed at the name Mordeth. She asks the boys if Mordeth touched them, gave them anything, or had them do anything for him. They answer no, and Mat whines that this place was supposed to be safe.

Moiraine explains that once a horde of Trollocs camped within the walls of Aridhol and only bits of blood and armor were found after, so now Trollocs and other servants of the Dark One avoid the place. But Moiraine has the ability to ward against the shadows dwelling in Shadar Logoth; had the boys stayed in the camp to be protected. Then she tells the story of Mordeth, and how he came to the city of Aridhol and, through a position advising the King, influenced the people of the city. In the name of fighting the war for the Light, they became dark and evil. No one knows exactly what eventually happened to the people, but eventually they were found to be gone, and a dark presence waiting instead. Moiraine calls it Mashadar, a force created from suspicion and hate, and it consumes all people it touches, save for Mordeth, who is instead ensnared by it. Moiraine tells them that if Mordeth can ever convince someone to accompany him to the walls of the city, the boundary of Mashadar’s power, then he will be able to consume the soul of that person and leave the city wearing their body. The boys are horrified, realizing that Mordeth must have been attempting exactly such an act by asking them to carry the treasure “to his horses,” but Moiraine promises they are safe inside her wards and that in the morning it will be safe to leave because things like Mashadar cannot stand the sunlight and will be hiding underground. They all try to sleep, until Lan returns and tells them that there are Trollocs inside the walls of the city, that somehow the Myrddraal forced them to come. Moiraine tells everyone they must leave at once, despite the danger of the night, and get to the river before the Trollocs and Myrddraal find them.

Moiraine and Lan lead the others through the streets as stealthily as they can, but suddenly Rand realizes that they are falling behind the Warder and the Aes Sedai. He’s about to spur his horse through a tendril of fog when Moiraine calls out to stop him; just in time, as the fog is actually Mashadar, and if they touch it, they will instantly die. A mindless power, but one that can sense its food, Mashadar wanders the streets at night, and now the companions are separated from their protectors. Moiraine tells them they must find a different street that is clear of Mashadar and to follow a red star in the eastern sky toward the river, where she assures them she will be able to find them again.

They all try to do as instructed, but as they’re searching for a clear street they stumble upon a pair Trollocs, and although Rand tries to lead everyone, they all scatter in different directions. Rand is nearly caught by some Trollocs and a Fade, but the creatures don’t know not to touch Mashadar, and when they step into it to attack Rand it consumes them, wrapping around them like tentacles that dive down into their mouths. Rand rides away, and nearly takes Mat’s head off in the dark when he mistakes the silhouette for that of a Trolloc. They make their cautious way toward a gate that leads into the forest beyond, and hesitate to pass through it until Thom rides up from out of nowhere, shouting at them to go, the sounds of pursuing Trollocs close behind.

Perrin and Egwene meet up as well, and are similarly chased by Trollocs out of the city and through the woods. In their haste in the darkness they ride right off a bluff into the river, and Perrin loses track both of Egwene and his horse. Shedding his cloak in the icy water, Perrin struggles to swim to the far shore, and just manages it.

Rand, Mat, and Thom have slightly more luck, at least where the river is concerned, as they discover a boat moored for the night. Thom is able to take out a few Trollocs with the daggers he keeps hidden in his sleeves as the creatures focus their chase solely on the boys. This gives them a chance to find the boat and Thom believes he can bargain for passage with the Captain. And then more Trollocs appear and the three race onto the boat, shouting to warn the crew. A few Trollocs manage to board and one takes Rand down, knocking the wind out of him. It raises its pole as if to stab him through but just then the boat lurches and a boom swings out of the darkness and straight into the Trolloc, knocking it over the side of the boat.

Thom, Rand, and Mat meet the captain of the boat, Bayle Domon, who isn’t too sure how he feels about his newest passengers. Thom tells them a fake story about what they are doing there, introducing Rand and Mat as would-be gleeman’s apprentices, but Domon tells them he would never give anyone, even his own brother, a free ride. The way he talks, mentioning that he should throw them all overboard, alarms the boys until they offer him both the silver coins that Moiraine gave them back in the Two Rivers, and the Captain agrees to give them passage to Whitebridge, where they can only hope their friends will also turn up.

 

It sounds to me like Mashadar could be born out of the Children of the Light next! One of the strongest themes about the fight against Evil-with-a-capital-E that can be found in almost every epic fantasy story is the insidious ways in which Evil corrupts. In The Lord of the Rings, the One Ring and its counterparts are symbols for how darkness can sneak into good people; Boromir, for example, is seduced by the ring to the point of attacking Frodo because of his fears for Gondor. Saruman, on the other hand, is seduced by greed and lust for power. Both are great warriors on the side of Good who ultimately slip up due to these weaknesses. Boromir is able to redeem himself, before the end. Saruman not so much.

So far in The Eye of the World, power seems the main corrupting desire. Although we haven’t gone into enough detail to understand much about their motivation, the way the Children of the Light conduct themselves, their clothes, their threats, the way they throw their weight around, certainly speaks to the corruption of power. It’s all very Catholic Inquisition, the way they threaten everyone who doesn’t completely agree with and comply with them, the way they speak of Questioners and threaten the gatekeepers with “questioning” in order to convince them to turn over Rand and company instead. They may or may not actually believe that they are serving the Light their title references, but they are certainly not good guys, and indeed, are ready to torture the real good guys from the moment the narration encounters them.

When Moiraine tells the story of what happened to Aridhol, I was immediately thinking about the Children and their immorality in the name of serving Light. Moiraine even says that Mordeth gave the people of Aridhol the battle cry “The victory of the Light is all” that they “shouted it while their deeds abandoned the Light.” Given that Aridhol was once a notable opponent of the Dark One, it is probable that they continued to believe that they were fighting for the Light, even though they no longer were. Mashadar, she says, was born of suspicion and hate, and the idea of people on the side the Light hating and distrusting others who also fight for the Light sounds about right when you consider all the hatred and suspicion around the Aes Sedai. Moiraine talks all the time about how she opposes the Dark One and everything he wants, but meanwhile everyone we encounter distrusts her at best and considers her a Darkfriend at worst. Mistrust, suspicion, and in-fighting definitely seem to serve the Dark One’s purposes well.

So I really love having Mashadar as a physical manifestation of hatred and mistrust. It’s interesting that it devours the Trollocs and Myrddraal as indiscriminately as it would have the companions; Mashadar doesn’t care who you serve. It is a mindless destructive force, evil but not, you know, capital-E Evil. In some ways that makes the Shadar Logoth chapters even better than the Mines of Moria adventures in The Fellowship of the Ring, because thematically it touches on something that has already been set up and which I imagine will continue to grow in importance as the story continues. Plot-wise, Mashadar is serving the function of the Balrog in Fellowship by forcing the companions apart, but thematically it is more like Grima’s influence over King Theoden in The Return of the King. If Gandalf had not come to kick Wormtongue out and galvanize Theoden back to his old self, Rohan might have gone exactly the way of Aridhol–just consumed itself and faded away.

But getting back to the Moria analogy: Poor Mat and the boys don’t have the benefit I do of having read The Lord of the Rings, but as soon as Lan and Moiraine disagreed about seeking shelter Aridhol, I knew something was going to go wrong, just like it did when Aragorn and Gandalf disagreed about taking the path through Moria. Nobody got killed in Shadar Logoth, but the party did get separated, and I imagine there will be some consequences of that; Moiraine is no longer with any of the the boys, and Rand and Mat gave their coins away! I mean come on, obviously those were her link to them. And even if she can find them again, the fact that the group is split up will mean that she can’t protect all three of them anymore.

And I’ll tell you what else–I’m not sure we’ve seen the last of Mordeth (Literally his name is “more death”. Mat, why the heck would you follow a guy like that anywhere, especially into a dark building?) either. After all, we still don’t know why Mordeth suddenly stopped reaching for them and fled off into the wall instead. I wouldn’t be terribly shocked if he’s managed to catch one of our boys somehow, and there are too many questions left unanswered about the encounter. Who made that scream that Rand heard, and why? What did Mat do with the dagger he picked up? There’s a mention of him holding it and a mention of him still wanting to take some of the treasure, but at no point is it said that he drops it or that Perrin or Rand take it away. As the Pippin character he’s the one most likely to try to walk out of there with something he shouldn’t have touched, (thinking of the Palantir now) even after Moiraine’s warnings. But then again, maybe I’m not giving him enough credit. Time and more chapters will tell.

So now we have a divided party. Moiraine and Lan separated from everyone, Thom, Rand, and Mat sailing away from the others downriver, Perrin on the other shore, maybe possibly with Egwene, and we don’t even know where Nynaeve is. But wherever she is, you know she is going to be furious that she got separated from the Two Rivers folk. Next week we will find out what fate dictates for our fractured companions, and perhaps learn the consequences for taking and/or giving away treasure.

And as always, don’t forget to watch your spoilers in the comments!

Sylas Barrett is starting to need a chart to keep track of the fact that everyone in this story has six names. He’s also pretty sure that if he encountered Moiraine and Mordeth on opposite ends of a dark alley, he’d be able to tell which one was the evil guy.

About the Author

Sylas K Barrett

Author

Sylas K Barrett is a queer writer and creative based in Brooklyn. A fan of nature, character work, and long flowery descriptions, Sylas has been heading up Reading the Wheel of Time since 2018. You can (occasionally) find him on social media on Bluesky (@thatsyguy.bsky.social) and Instagram (@thatsyguy)
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7 years ago

*cackles* I wish I could have been that observant the first time through these books.

I never made the Moria/Shadar Logoth connection before.

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The Mega Sage
7 years ago

You … have an astute eye. Wow, impressive all the little hints that you pick up on. Well played sir.

Query, because I’m interested in the specifics of how you’re managing this read through. :) Are you reading or listening to the audio books? And how many times do you re-read/re-listen to a chapter? Do you take notes while you go, or just summarize at the end of each chapter? I envision a small notebook filled with your thoughts, and occasionally a word written large and underlined multiple times as you have an epiphany.

Anyways, this is a really enjoyable series. Thanks for doing it!

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7 years ago

Denethor is another good example of what despair, mistrust and paranoia can do to the ‘good guys’. It’s a theme that continues to be relevant – we never seem to learn.

I can’t really comment on the other WOT related stuff because…so much I want to say and that I’m somewhat cackling with glee while reading.

 

 

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7 years ago

I have to keep reminding myself that I was 14 when I first read this book and I didn’t have any deep understanding of story development, how a narrative is crafted or much of a clue about what foreshadowing is. Because your insight is really making me look bad.

I remember it being Shadar Logoth that really first hooked me into this book. The whole place was so creepy and the way RJ described the city was the first big visual moment for me. The three boys exploring an abandoned city is an image that has always stuck with me, and it was our first experience of RJ describing architecture, at this point I’ll just say the man had a very unique imagination when it came to city planing. 

This section is also our first POV switch of the series  and… it… was… a… Perrin… wait better double check that to sure… yes.. it… was… indeed… a… Perrin… POV… switch… but just to be safe I’m going to think about it for a couple of months and then decide for certain. Hope you liked it we only have a few hundred more POV characters to get through before the end.

 

 

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7 years ago

I will say this: Don’t bother shaking the dust of Shadar Logath from your sandals just yet. 

I don’t know about any of the other people who read this series, but SL is actually my favorite location, followed by a couple places in the last books, oh and… well you’ll learn about that one later on.

The part that raises my hackles about Mordeth and the people of Aridhol is that he was able to convince them that to fight Evil, they must be even harder and darker and Evil. So much so that the Dark One’s spawn no longer set foot there unless being driven, and even then, it can be a close thing.

SL serves more than splitting the characters up through the series. Which I won’t get into ;-)

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7 years ago

@5 This must be what authors feel like. I don’t understand how they don’t spend every moment humming “I know something you don’t know!”

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7 years ago

You failed to mention one of the more interesting bits from these chapters.  This gave me goosebumps in my first read:  

Egwene sniffed as if to show what she thought of that. “I wasn’t talking about that. What … what were you shouting, Mat?”

Mat shrugged uncomfortably. “I don’t remember.” He stared at them defensively. “Well, I don’t. It’s all foggy. I don’t know what it was, or where it came from, or what it means.” He gave a self deprecating laugh. “I don’t suppose it means anything.”

“I … I think it does,” Egwene said slowly. “When you shouted, I thought — just for a minute — I thought I understood you. But it’s all gone, now.” She sighed and shook her head. “Perhaps you’re right. Strange what you can imagine at a time like that, isn’t it?”

“Carai an Caldazar,” Moiraine said. They all twisted to stare at her. “Carai an Ellisande. Al Ellisande. For the honor of the Red Eagle. For the honor of the Rose of the Sun. The Rose of the Sun. The ancient warcry of Manetheren, and the warcry of its last king. Eldrene was called the Rose of the Sun.” Moiraine’s smile took in Egwene and Mat both, though her gaze may have rested a moment longer on him than on her. “The blood of Arad’s line is still strong in the Two Rivers. The old blood still sings.”

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Tomas
7 years ago

By now you’ll start to notice some similarities with the Arthurian legend as well.

Take a look at some of the names Moiraine, Mordeth, Lan (maybe short form of Lancelot) and Egwene al’Vere (Guinevere).

Just because they have a similar name doesn’t necessarily mean that they will fill the same type of role in the story.

There are a lot of others like that and that’s intentional.

You will probably notice more similarities in names between WoT and the Arthurian Legend. Later on you’ll see names and aspects from obscure as well as familiar myths and religions pop up here and there. 

Plotwise it won’t affect the story. 

It is one of the basic concepts of the Wheel of Time. Our events are the source for their myths and Legends and the events in the book series is the basis for our myths and legends although they have been slightly altered through the passage of time and all the re-tellings. 

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Faculty Guy
7 years ago

The Children-of-the-Light similarity with the Inquisition is one I had not made, but is interesting. I grew up in the Southern US, as did RJ -we were born 4 years apart, and I’m pretty sure that  RJ had the KKK in the back of his mind.

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7 years ago

Ahh, the good old days of being chased by nicely-described Shadowspawn and other creepy inhuman things. Good for me, that is. Not for the characters, ///though this won’t be the worst time of their lives.///

Yes, a bad combination of the distrusting “suspicion and hate” that turned Aridhol into Shadar Logoth and the boys’ trust for what and who they find there. Did they never hear any gleemans’ tales about treasure-baited traps?

“I help anyone who needs my help, whether I like them or not.” Any other readers think of Stormlight Archive here?

I still unanswerably want to know exactly what (not who) “the Rose of the Sun” means. And why the Dha’vol are the “worst” Trollocs; sorry, I forgot that was mentioned in this set of chapters instead of an earlier one. And why Trollocs and Myrddraal ///and Darkhounds/// hate water – it’s a mythological reference, but I want to know the *in-world* reason, which I expect nobody in-world knows.

Lan reported that they were being followed by at least three fists of Trollocs, possibly five. Because a “fist” is a military unit of 100-200 Trollocs, this estimate could have been for anything between 300 and 1,000.

I don’t recall if it’s ever stated in-text, but a Myrddraal can link minds with a group of Trollocs. This allows him to control them, but they drop and soon die when he is dealt a death blow. That’s what we witnessed here.

“…like the tentacles of a hundredarm at the bottom of a Waterwood pool.” Excuse me, what? This world has freshwater cephalopods?? ///Non-Shadowspawn ones, I mean.///

 

Possibly-spoilery questions:

/// If a slain Myrddraal inexplicably doesn’t die until nightfall (or sunset, as is said elsewhere), what happens if one is killed at night? I’m sure this must have happened a time or five, but I can’t think of particular scenes. We see Mashadar attack one in this chapter, but don’t wait around to see how soon he dies. ///

/// “The dead can be reborn” is a revelation? I thought reincarnation was central to their cosmology, hence “Under the Light, and by my hope of salvation and rebirth” etc. Are we talking about something special here? I need to reread some discussion of this. ///

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7 years ago

@9 – I’m Catholic and my mind immediately went there (especially with the Questioners) although the attire may certainly be based on the KKK.

@10 – ah, holy crap, Nyneave would make the greatest Windrunner :)

There’s also one thing that nobody has mentioned in this chapter that is a significant happening and will have some future consequences…:)  //(The boom ‘conveniently’ striking the Trolloc)//

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7 years ago

Several – I went right to Inquisition as the CoL model without ever stopping at the KKK.  No doubt there will be more opportunities for comparison later. 

 

Aerona@11 – really nice point comparing the causes of Aridhol’s destruction and the boys’ destructive mistrust of Moiraine. 

Lisamarie @11 – the point made in your spoiler text is exactly right but it is spoilerific so let’s not ruin it by talking in public.   :-)

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7 years ago

Can we get a spoiler thread or sixty, like we got for the Read of Ice and Fire?

Jason_UmmaMacabre
7 years ago

Reading this first time read through (with analysis based only on what has been read) while listening to the WOT Spoilers Podcast (with analysis based on the finished series) is fantastic and I highly recommend it. There a lot of great stuff in these chapters and you’ve caught most of it. Well done.

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7 years ago

@12 – that’s why it’s whited out :)

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7 years ago

Already looking forward to next week and Chapter 21 – in some respects my favorite in the entire book.  So beautifully executed.  

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7 years ago

Interesting observations.  Very astute.  One thing to note:

“This time it takes Moiraine’s power, amplified by her angreal and staff”

As Moiraine has explained, her staff is merely a focus for concentration, not really necessary or needed except as a visual aid.  The Angreal, on the other hand, does amplify her power. 

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7 years ago

Great summary and let me echo the comments of others on how astutely you are picking up on clues and inferences.

“It is a mindless destructive force, evil but not, you know, capital-E Evil.”

All I can say about this comment, without being too spoilerish, is vive la difference!

 

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7 years ago

@12: I rather think the boys were too trusting in this case, though it is odd that they trusted Mordeth more than Moiraine. 

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7 years ago

@12 I’m inclined to think the KKK is perhaps more relevant for the Whitecloaks than the Inquisition even though it’s the less obvious connection. Reasoning (I don’t think this counts as a spoiler): the Whitecloaks aren’t particularly concerned with theological purity. From what we see throughout the series from their perspectives, as long as you are neither channeling the Power nor worshipping the Dark One, then you’re pretty much OK. 

///That said, if this is what RJ had in mind then there are some disturbing implications given that, based on the number of Darkfriends that would logically be needed to support the Black Ajah at 20% of the Tower, the Whitecloaks are factually correct that large numbers of people secretly worshipping the Dark One are threaded throughout normal society. Which is quite unlike the reality of Klan conspiracy accusations. So perhaps “religious extremists who are that much more extreme because they are deists and therefore think that the job has been delegated to them” is the better interpretation than either. Spoilers over.///

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Hinds
7 years ago

      I recall reading this section of the series. Imeditatly I was excited by the scape, and graphic scope of the destructive violent mortal combat.              I also would regard Gullum as an excellent example of how twisted corrupt and evil values eat their way into a person and making them evil as well In such a case of rampant abuse of power, I would also include a group such as the White Cloaks as a whole into that same category of being inherently wrong.  Corruption and evil in Shadar Logoth as well  is a story on to itself. Very much enjoyed.                  

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7 years ago

One of the constants of fantasy stories featuring young people coming into their own is you have to get rid of the mentor. Whether the young one runs away, is separated, is sent on his own, or the mentor dies, you can’t have the Two Rivers folk sticking with Moiraine and Lan for too long.

I can see the parallels between Moria and Shadar Logoth, but I think they’re only surface deep. The differences are much more important than the similarities.

Moria is an abject lesson in greed. As many of Tolkien’s dwarven tales are. They “delved too deeply” and woke evil. Also, the evil in Moria is neutral toward or possibly distantly aligned with Sauron. Finally from a story telling perspective, Moria was used to establish the martial prowess of everyone in the company. Even the hobbits make a good showing of themselves in terms of bravery if not in terms of strength.

Shadar Logoth is a lesson in paranoia or ends-justifying-the-means. The evil here is directly opposed to capital E Evil. And from a story telling perspective, it doesn’t just split the company, it shatters them into 5 pieces by the end of chapter 20 and shows how helpless they all are without Moiraine and Lan.

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Kevin S.
7 years ago

I never quite made the connection between Moria and Shadar Logoth as the places that separate the Fellowship from its magical protector when I first read this. I did draw a strong connection between Mashadar and the Children of the Light, though.

Spoilery observations:

1. I wish Mashadar had played a bigger role in this series. In particular, I wish it had been the source of the CotL’s corruption, instead infiltration by Darkfriends.

2. I forgot about the bit about anyone leading Mordeth outside the city walls becoming possessed by him. I had always thought Padan Fain was just possessed by Mashadar in general.

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7 years ago

The Whitecloaks are Templars or similar orders with the Questioners as the Inquisition.

//I thought Moria is the Ways not Shadar Logoth. Gollum/Fain follows the heroes through a dark place.//

Berthulf
7 years ago

Whilst I always caught the Templar and Inquisition references in the CotL, I never really connected them to the KKK, but that makes sense, especially their prejudices. Thinking back, it seems to me that whilst they may have started off as a noble order of knights, such as the original Knights Templar, Mashadarian ‘e’vil has influenced them to become more like the KKK // At no point did I believe Darkfriends were (solely) responsible for such a paradigm shift, and took any mention of that to be merely character inferences and thus, unreliable narration. I think, more likely, the Darkfriend infiltration was only possible due to the CotL’s increasingly Mashadarian nature, but that this only fed the problem and lead to a chain reaction, with the SL events as a touchstone to set the mood for Perrin and Egwene’s encounter: perhaps one of the earliest yet most significant cases of unreliable naration from the PoV character. //

@23 // Padan Fain was only ever a mundane  Darkfriend until The Dark One made him a hound to sniff out Rand. The ‘e’vil of Mashadar that corrupts him is only as a result of his possession of The Dagger. //

@24 Jordan’s love of Moria is evident in both sections. // SL fulfills the function while the Ways fulfil the theme: Nobody gets left behind in the Ways. //

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7 years ago

@25 referring to @23

not exactly

// It was not possession of the Dagger that corrupted Padan Fain.  It was its merging with Mordeth at SL that changed him.  He only took the Dagger latter as a “reminder of home” kind of thing.//

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Dr. Thanatos
7 years ago

I didn’t see it explicitly in your text so I apologize if I am repeating the obvious but:

Group is being hotly pursued by bad guys, some of whom are dog-like. There is debate about whether to go to the dreaded secret way. The leader with the magic powers disagrees with the leader with the muscles and sword. They are attacked by bad guys, some of whom are dog-like. They have no choice so they go to the dreaded secret way. Where the member of the party who is portrayed as a fool does something foolish.

WOT or LOTR? Both!

Jason_UmmaMacabre
7 years ago

There are certainly parallels between this book and LOTR, but generally, I think they are well done enough that it gets a pass. The inverse of that is a book like Sword of Shannara, which I really struggled to get through it because it was so derivative. 

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Dr. Thanatos
7 years ago

@28 I wasn’t saying it was a bad thing. In fact until I read this it never occurred to me. If only Terry Brooks was that subtle…

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7 years ago

I read TEOTW before LOTR (started LOTR around the same time as I was reading TGH), so the similariries didn’t stand out the first time. I still guessed that Shadar Logoth and Mordeth were Bad News. 

Jason_UmmaMacabre
7 years ago

29. Dr. Thanatos

I totally agree. I caught a few things, like the wizard (Moiraine/Gandalf) getting the hero (Rand/Frodo) out of their isolated village (Emond’s Field/The Shire), but these are common in a lot of fantasy so I thought nothing of it. This read-through is showing that there were a lot more parallels than I previously was aware of. Its just proof that you can do homage without being completely derivative. 

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18342772
7 years ago

I don’t mean to distract from this specific discussion, but regarding the general Tolkien discussion and comparisons, I think some here might find this link interesting. It takes you to everything tagged “Tolkien” on Theoryland, and as such, contains much of what Jordan (and later Sanderson) said about the famous professor and his seminal work. I think these two questions and answers are probably the cleanest distillation, though:

Question
Are any of your characters or cultures designed to pay specific homage to any particular work or author?
Robert Jordan
No. In the first chapters of The Eye of the World, I tried for a Tolkienesque feel without trying to copy Tolkien’s style, but that was by way of saying to the reader, okay, this is familiar, this is something you recognize, now let’s go where you haven’t been before. I like taking a familiar theme, something people think they know and know where it must be heading, then standing it on its ear or giving it a twist that subverts what you thought you knew.

Rick Kleffel
Now, how would you bring someone who has never read your books—and indeed might only have become aware of the high potential of the fantasy genre with the recent motion picture adaptations of The Lord of the Rings—to start the Wheel of Time? What would you tell them?
Robert Jordan

Well, if they liked The Lord of the Rings, I’d tell them The New York Times claims I’m the American heir to The Lord of the Rings—to Tolkien! The American heir to Tolkien; that’s what Ed Rothstein said in The New York Times. But you would have to imagine Tolkien with no elves, no dwarves, no unicorns, no dragons, no hobbits—just people, written with an American sensibility instead of an English sensibility, and where Tolkien drew on the myths and legends of the English countryside and Norse myths and legends, I have drawn on the myths and legends of every country in the world based largely on the fact that we’re a melting pot, and there are very few nations in the world that do not have people from the nation living here in the United States.

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7 years ago

That’s such an interesting idea about the American ‘legends’ :)

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18342772
7 years ago

@37: I remember a professor recounting a Harold Bloom quote–or a paraphrase thereof–that every man and woman is in Hamlet, and if you look at his whole canon, “everything is Shakespeare”. That is, he wrote ‘everything’, and everything written since–in the Western canon–is influenced so heavily by his works that it is either Shakespeare in some respects, or not Shakespeare in others–and if you’re not, then you’re still defined by your relation, and so you are, really. I’m not here to comment on the truth of those statements, and I’m muddling them regardless. And anyway, I imagine there are no shortage of English majors here, who had to read The Anxiety of Influence, or are at least familiar with the lens.

My point is you could make the same statement about Tolkien–perhaps a stronger one, since we’re only decades removed from his being current. And so you have fantasy like the early Shannara books, which essentially remix LOTR; you have Michael Moorcock calling Tolkien a ‘crypto-fascist’, and railing against basically everything he did; and of course there is George Martin and Tad Williams and on and on, all initially reviewed as like or unlike Tolkien in various ways. Even when we look at the current fantasy landscape, the first thing many mainstream publications note is the diversity of cast, narrative, and author… relative, of course, to Tolkien. How many reviews have we seen, for instance, that framed NK Jemisin’s books as “Like Tolkien, but ___” or “More ____ than Tolkien.”

Jordan was–and is–no different, and he did go on record as saying LOTR, taken together, was probably his favorite book. I suppose the publishing landscape at the time is probably worth considering–I don’t think a current epic fantasy author would feel the need to ease readers in with a comfortable “like Fellowship” sort of opening. All of this is to say, whatever Jordan says somewhat offhandedly, that there’s so much in WOT that it grows more in conversation–and sometimes, argument–with itself than the wide-ranging mythology from which it draws–of which LOTR is essentially a part–and I think you’ll find it interesting to read, think about, and write about. I’ve enjoyed your approach a great deal so far, rather than a more conventional “here’s a play-by-play” approach.

goldeyeliner
7 years ago

This has me itching, positively ITCHING, to do a re-read. But can I keep my pace to Kelsey’s? or will I end up diving in and devouring them (again)? 

I was introduced to these books in the early 90s, when the first 20 or so chapters of tEotW were included (as a paperback) in a video game my husband bought. He read it, I read it, we bought the first 3 (4?) books that had been published, and we were hooked. 

Nynaeve was never high on my list, her bossiness reminded me too much of an (my) overbearing older sister. I wonder if I go back now, older and hopefully wiser, with an open mind, if I’ll like her better. I do love her moment(s) of awesome in the later books. 

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7 years ago

@39 – I tried to stick with Kelsey’s chapters and couldn’t do it.  Itching to move onto c. 21, the first chapter with someone other than Rand as the point of view narrator and one of my favorites in the book and the series.  

Jason_UmmaMacabre
7 years ago

39. goldeyeliner I actually started a reread last week. :) I’m not super worried about keeping pace since I’ve read these enough to keep up from memory, but I’m immensely enjoying it all over again.

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Jade Phoenix
7 years ago

Something interesting occurred to me while reading this: if Matt hadn’t picked up that dagger, the Dark One would certainly have won, so give him a break already :)

 

Note: message edited by moderator to white out spoilers. 

Jason_UmmaMacabre
7 years ago

42. Jade Phoenix 

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills… :)

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7 years ago

: It can be an irksome trope. In-world, there’s a reason for the mind control at least. Trollocs are bad soldiers — inclined to kill whoever they want, flee from anything they fear, and balk at doing any other task. (Sorry, Narg). As attempted “perfect” soldiers, they were a failed experiment until their breeding unexpectedly produced Myrddraal, who proved able to mentally restrain and direct armies of them. But of course that’s only the case because Jordan chose to make it so. And the dying wasn’t a necessary hazard of mind-linking, just a convenient one for the heroes and the author.

Spoiler: ///It reminds me of what happens to a Warder whose bonded Aes Sedai dies, but much more extreme and inescapable.///

If you only use audiobooks and don’t yet have the map from the books, I recommend locating one. Here’s a bare-bones version from the WoT Wiki:comment image

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7 years ago

That is, he wrote ‘everything’, and everything written since–in the Western canon–is influenced so heavily by his works that it is either Shakespeare in some respects, or not Shakespeare in others–and if you’re not, then you’re still defined by your relation, and so you are, really.

Western is not identical to English-language. Other languages are not as fixated on Shakespeare. It is strange that in English Shakespeare seems to be the only literature and in America the Civil War is the only history. Maybe RJ had to borrow from other cultures to get beyond that narrow focus.

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EG
7 years ago

Have Tor ever considered a leather bound edition of the wheel of time? I would love to read an «easton press» version or something like brandon Sandersens lesther books?

Anthony Pero
7 years ago

I always viewed Mordeth and Ahdriol more as a combination of Sarumon and Grima Wormtongue than anything else. 

As far as connecting the CotL with SL, that is astute. Thematically they are definitely connected in this part of the story. 

An argument can be made that they are connected in-world as well, but more on that later.

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zero_g
6 years ago

I find Moiraine’s knowledge of the history of Shadar Logoth and Mordeth frustrating. I appreciate she is providing exposition for us as readers but it doesn’t make sense in world building terms. 

Knowing that an army of Trollocs camped here and all that was ever found were the scraps of armour would make a little sense, given you could identify that trollocs had been there from the remaining armour scraps, but who is traipsing around shadar logoth looking for armour scraps – and how likely is it that they would survive to let the aes sedai know what happened. 

Secondly, how does anyone know that mordeth still lives – that Moiraine would recognise his name is not unsurprising but that she would purport to know that he would consume someone’s soul if they take him to the edge of the city – assuming that this has never happened previously how would she know; if it has happened previously he wouldn’t still be in Shadar Logoth to tempt the Three Rivers Posse?  

I know that this is a commonly used fictional device but it is a little bit overplayed.

 

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6 years ago

@48, I credit the Brown Ajah. This is the kind of intelligence they live to dig up.

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